Cel: Genesis 6
P.J. Wiseman Submitted by PigSP on Sun, 2015-04-26 23:32.
>>Why could not God have taught Adam to write (Adam was brilliant, and probably could have quickly formulated an alphabet, etc.)? Adam talked with God in the Garden and could have recorded the creation account from Him, and so passed his written record through very few hands (he was nearly a contemporary with Noah), and also Noah would add his eye-witness account of the Flood, so on down to Moses.
There may be evidence within the text to suggest that. Google P.J. Wiseman and toledoth. His theory is supported by R.K. Harrison. The hieroglyphoc nature of the alphabet, as I have been sharing elsewhere also supports it.
defection Submitted by PigSP on Mon, 2015-04-27 08:06.
>>one third of the stars from heaven this refers to the defection from the church
I am pretty sure you have it right. The children of Abraham are called dust, sand of the seashore and stars.
The dust are the children who do not have the word. The sand are the ones who are washed by the word. The stars are the ones who testify of God's holiness in the firmament (in Christ). They are the light of the world.
What good are symbols if they aren't the same everywhere?
Example of bad symbolic usage: He met his Waterloo, meaning he had fun at Disneyland.
No one would understand what you were saying. What we think a symbol means, or what it means to us is not nearly important as how the symbol was used everywhere else. The argument is made that all the authors of the Bible may not have used a symbol that same way, forgetting that the One author put it all together.
Mary the ark Submitted by PigSP on Mon, 2015-04-27 08:54.
I believe the Catholic dogma is that Mary, not the church is the ark:
"Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is ‘the dwelling of God . . . with men’" (CCC 2676)
Augustine's Hebrew memory Submitted by PigSP on Mon, 2015-04-27 12:38.
I appreciate your post Tom,
Admittedly I am a bit jaded by much of what Augustine has left us, however, this shows he had a memory of the Hebrew method, even as he imposed the Greek upon it.
Questions we put to Hebrew observation (there may be others): 1. Is the correlation still valid in the original language? A word in English or Greek may actually be several words in Hebrew. 2. Is it a correlation of a word or an idea? If an idea, is the metaphor the same everywhere?
Questions we put to the Greek invention (there may be others): 1. What are the unspoken assumptions required for the inference? 2. Are they observations or inferences? 3. Are they true?
>>14. ...That Enoch, the seventh from Adam, pleased God, and was translated, as there is to be a seventh day of rest into which all will be translated who, during the sixth day of the world’s history, are created anew by the incarnate Word.
>>That Enoch, the seventh from Adam, pleased God, and was translated, as there is to be a seventh day of rest
This is Hebrew. The seventh day is correlated with all seventh days. Even though he does not enumerate all the other seventh days, he simply uses it as though it is common knowledge. He has tied three occurrences in scripture together. It is an observation. It should be taken as Remez (a pointer to a greater context) in all three allusions.
>>into which all will be translated who, during the sixth day of the world’s history, are created anew by the incarnate Word.
This is Greek. It is a conclusion based on his eschatology/philosophy. This doesn't mean it is wrong (though it may be). The unspoken assumption 1. It is assumed that: There is only one seventh day in the history of the world. Another possibility, based on the observation that nearly everything else has a spiritual and a physical manifestation, is that the time of the cross is the physical manifestation when the Kingdom of Heaven was ushered into the earth, and the time of our personal encounter with the cross, is the second. There may be other possibilities.
It is difficult to identify the unspoken Greek assumptions, particularly if you agree with them. I am always happy to have my biases pointed out, and am happy to spell them out. Having been trained in Greek methods, I also slip into them from time to time.
6.1 -7 Submitted by PigSP on Mon, 2015-04-27 21:15.
Ge 6:1 ¶ And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Ge 6:3 ¶ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Ge 6:4 ¶ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
sons of God It is a mistake to identify the Nephilim as children of the union of the Sons of God and the daughters of men. It was 'after' the Nephilim that the sons of God came into the daughters of men. It is also a mistake to say that the Sons of God were angels. Genesis 1 makes it clear that everything God made that reproduces, reproduces after it's own kind. Even parables of Jesus speak of trees bearing fruit after their own kind.
Comparing the genealogies of Cain and Seth, it has been observed previously that Seth's children 'lived' and Cain's children did not live (See how many times the word 'lived' is used in each). Further, it is said of Seth's children "... then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." Ge 4:26 Seth's children are the Sons of God.
daughters of men. When men began to multiply, surely both sons and daughters were born to them, but we are only told that daughters were born to them. Previously male and female have been identified as those who see clearly, and those who don't.
Seth's children worshiped God and were those who 'understood'. But faith is not inherited. Among their children were those who did not worship God. Those of faith, the Sons of God, married those without faith, the daughters of men.
Nephilim "The notorious ones". This is not simply a group of evil men. The notorious ones were Adam, Eve and Cain. All the children of Adam would have known of their sin. Adam and Eve had gotten man cast out from the garden, and Cain was marked in a way that all men could see.
his days shall be an hundred and twenty years Some suggest this refers to the average lifespan of men. Count the years until the flood.
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
God is merciful and patient. He waits until "iniquity is full". "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full." Ge 15:16
Ge 6:6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Ge 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
It repented the Lord This is one verse suggesting that God has passions. The Greek church has reasoned that God does not have passions. The reasoning is based in the fallacious use of the rule of non-contradiction. "Contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time".
What must be true for the law fo non-contradiction to apply? When the contradictory statements are defined, they must be truly binary in every way, shape, form and time. Such definitions using language is nearly impossible. Also the meaning of the words must be understood the way they were intended.
When God said that he did not change what did HE mean? When he created the universe, where did he put it? He had to put it within himself since there is no space bigger than God. Did he exclude that from his intended meaning? Before he created, he was not a creator. What about incarnation? Is that change? It might be suggested that the Greeks have imposed their own meaning upon what God intended, and then reasoned from there. It appears under scrutiny that the Greek God may be an invention of Greek philosophy.
The yud י represents everything God thought to create. It is like the Big Bang point except that it includes personality. The resh ר is the revelation of God, including personality. Jesus was God, and wept, and he said that if we saw him we have seen the Father. If we had never read Augustine nor the Greek theologians, we would never think that God did not have passions.
How many apparent contradictions are solved if we simply believe that God responds to the choices of men? We say it is a religion of relationship.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
6.1-7 Jesus (paraphrase of the metaphor) Submitted by PigSP on Mon, 2015-04-27 22:24.
The important point of scripture is always the picture of Christ: This is a loose rendition:
1. And it came to pass that mankind was becoming blind. 2. Those who should have understood led those who did not understand. 3. And the lord said, My Spirit will not always strive with man, For that, my [Spirit] is flesh and his distinct picture is 3 (God's) *4 (revealed) *10 (commandment) of death 4. The earth was notoriously sinful (all have sinned) and when Christ came into Israel they bore ancient children [chosen from the foundation....] 5. And God saw that Christ had been made to be sin in the earth, and that his heart had been set on being made to be sin continually. 6. And it grieved the Father that he had sent his Son on the earth. 7. And the Lord said, "I will destroy Jesus from the face of the earth. Both he and all nations, for it grieves me.
invisible church Submitted by PigSP on Tue, 2015-04-28 06:31.
>>Many are willing to acknowledge their connection to the invisible, mystical body of Christ but try to convince them of the necessity of the visible, physical Church and you get many different responses.
I have two observations: 1. The religious system of Israel was identified by their Temple. It was destroyed in 70 A.D. so that there could be no doubt about the end of the Covenant. The church was identified by their unity. Isn't it plausible that the destruction of that Unity of the visible church with the great schism between East and West was intended to send the same message, the Kingdom of Heaven is not an institution.
2. A new Christian can join just about any church and they are happy to have him. However, the more he learns the Bible, the more he disqualifies himself from one physical church or another. This is backwards. Isn't this also evidence?
6.8 Noah Submitted by PigSP on Tue, 2015-04-28 07:51.
A Hebrew gate is a two letter sub-root. The meaning of the gate is reversed if the letters are reversed. This is not the same as opposite.
Ge 6:8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Noah (Noach) is spelled נח and grace is spelled chen חן or (חנ). The ן symbol is the final form (found at the end of words) for נ. Noah means 'rest' and chen means 'grace' or 'favor'.
The sense of reversal is that rest is an attribute of the individual, where grace is like rest but imparted. As we enter into Christ's rest, it becomes our own attribute as well. We become 'like' him.
found מצא The the word could be read as 'from מ going out צא'. Or "from מ righteousness צ and holiness א(separate)". He did good works and kept separate from the world.
6.9 Noah 2 Submitted by PigSP on Tue, 2015-04-28 08:07.
Ge 6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.
generations toledoth תולדת P.J. Wiseman suggests that the toledoth is a colphon, or indicator of the owner of a clay tablet. In 6.9 the colophon would have been added after Noah's death to close the book of his testimony. The beginning of his tablet would have been started with 5.2. The next tablet would have been written by Noah's sons. see 10.1
v.9 repeats what was discerned from the word 'found' in v.8. Noah did good works and was separate from the world by walking with God.
6.10 Three sons Submitted by PigSP on Tue, 2015-04-28 08:19.
Whenever there are three things in a group they map to the Trinity. In this case: Shem = name or reputation (of the Father) Ham חם = hot (as the burnt offering, or life ח of the son who completed the work ם) and was made to be a curse for us. Japheth יפת = opened ( purpose ת of God's י mystery פ) which represents the opening of the veil of the temple, the door to God, by the Spirit (Christ in resurrection).
